ATLIS Virtual Town Hall Transcripts
September 22, 2021

The following is a raw and unedited transcript of the ATLIS Virtual Town Hall meeting on Wednesday, September 22, 2021. 

Unknown Speaker 0:00
So welcome, everybody, to the first Atlas virtual Town Hall of the 2021 2022. school year. So we're so glad that you're here. Yeah, I know, it's sort of like back to school night for Atlas. So we are glad you're here I'm, I see some familiar faces, I see some new faces. So this is going to be a really interesting and good conversation today. But as always, we usually began with a with a few sort of Alice, announcements, upcoming events and things we want you to be thinking about that are coming up in the Atlas world. So I'm gonna share my screen. And let you guys see what's coming up. Everybody got that? For with you? Okay. So, first of all, we have some special editions of some very particular seminars coming from our collaboration with educational collaborators and Google. Ashley, do you want to talk about these a sec? Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 1:19
You know, we are so excited. This is a member exclusive benefit, the content is actually going to be put on by independent school educators. But it's in partnership with Google for education. So we are thrilled to bring this to all Atlas members free of charge. And we actually have a series of three different workshops. So the first one is actually happening tomorrow, and it's for school leaders. So anyone on your admin team, we'd love to see them there. And it's going to be looking at a very high level, as far as how Google can help you with the operations at your school. So to clarify, if you're a Microsoft school, unfortunately, this one is not the one where you but if you are a Google school, definitely check this out. So again, first one, starting tomorrow, the next one will be the following Thursday, and it's going to be for all educators, so specifically for teachers, and we will have a third one that is actually happening in November. And that one is for the technology director for your tech leadership. So to clarify the one tomorrow, it's for leadership, but not necessarily the tech director, it's for people that maybe don't have the word tech in their title. So it's going to be really at their level and helping them get the most out of Google.

Unknown Speaker 2:34
So the registrations for both of those are in the chat. Actually, you want to pop it in again, just in case anybody here after you were speaking, and we will move on to the next thing. So coming up next week, we will have an a gathering online for Atlas reads, we're going to get together and we're going to be talking about these two books. kwaku awning is going to be leading our conversation about post Corona from crisis to opportunity. If you want to narrow your focus for the book, you can look at chapter one and the chapter on higher higher education, which is closest to what we might be talking about for ourselves. It's a really thought provoking book. And then we're going to also be visiting some of the big questions that comes from nine big questions, schools must be answered to avoid going back to normal. And Ashley or Kelsey, you want to tell us about the transition toolkit and one more opportunity together. Sure, okay. Also,

Unknown Speaker 3:46
for this one, we have people that are new to their position. So maybe you have a lot of experience, but maybe it's your first year at your school, or maybe you've changed job titles and responsibilities. We'd love to have you on October the first at one o'clock eastern time. In addition to that we have a transition toolkit, so a whole resource guide to help you through, especially as you begin this school year. So I've put the link to both of those resources in the chat as well. This is a free resource and open to all please feel free to share with your team as well.

Unknown Speaker 4:23
All right, and I want everybody to make sure you have this on your your calendars. It is going to be October in a hot minute. And we are doing a seminar special summit, what we call a summit where we gathered together a group of people to talk about various topics of interest to our community. And this one is on budgeting essentials. Show me the money October 6 summit. If you're an atlas member that's free, it's $59 for non members, but one of the things you want to stay tuned into for this particular event. We are partnering With their cross to bring you this event, and we're going to be hearing from budgeting guru, Kurt wryneck, we're bringing him out of retirement to talk to us, we're going to be hearing from Jeff Dayton, who's going to talk about how his school is revisiting the entire budget process as a result of what they've gone through with the past in the past few years with the pandemic. And we're also going to be hearing from Jamaica, zillo, who is down at Miami Country Day School, and he's going to be talking about what we need to be thinking we need to be thinking about as far as all the subscriptions that have really proliferated as they came into our world and, and sort of multiplied, sometimes unbeknownst to us in the last two years, so how to get those under control in the budgeting process. Coming up, also in October is the EPA cyber safety workshop for independent schools. That is, it's not, it's not two offerings, it's two days one offering, so you get five hours of programming across two Friday sessions, they're two and a half hours long. And anybody who registers for that is also automatically signed up for our bonus summit on the cybersecurity updates where we hear from industry industry professionals. If you haven't come to a cyber security workshop at Atlas in a while you might want to come in the world has changed, as you know. And we constantly update our programming. We also have virtual town halls, as usual, they're going to be every month at 3pm. And the next one's on October 20th. And we're gonna have a special focus on Google for education. Using Google tools, essentially and the Google workspace that was a special request from Layne young. And so he you know, what happens when you make a request like that is I reach out to you and I say, can you lead the discussion and start us off with some questions. So he's gonna be helping us out their access points, the discussion board at Atlas, the discussions are really kicking off and going full steam. So do you Wait, do you want to give us a little sense of that, Ashley? Yeah, we've

Unknown Speaker 7:24
got some great ones happening from multi factor authentication to new innovation spaces to professional development, the discussions are going on there. So with your Atlas membership, and this is open to the community, so we encourage everybody to go check it out. I just dropped a link to that in the chat. If you have any issues, please feel free to reach out. I'll be your point of contact for that. But we'd love to see on there and see involved.

Unknown Speaker 7:49
Yeah, and so for all of these know that the leaks for those are being dropped in the chat in case it's something that catches your fancy. We update the Atlas Clearinghouse regularly. So we want you to know about that. And check in and see what's new there every once in a while. And a little bit about the community as a whole. Actually,

Unknown Speaker 8:13
yes. So if you are not an atlas member, yet, it is a great time to check out and see what we're all about. So you've got a little preview here. But it's this plus much more. If you are an atlas member, and you just want to learn about getting the most out of your membership. I've got links for both scenarios. So check those out in the chat, we've got a getting started page. So definitely get your team plugged in share. We've got lots of great resources, not only for you, but for your colleagues as well. So make sure you're inviting those and we really appreciate your participation. we're better together.

Unknown Speaker 8:45
It's really nice. I love looking at these particular pictures, because they remind me of events in the past, we actually got together in person. But we're going to talk a little bit about that today. And I'm going to stop sharing now. And we're gonna jump in to a little bit of a survey. So in the chat, I am going to add a survey. Sorry, Susan, I added it I didn't move. No, no, you're just so much faster that I am Ashley. So if you wouldn't mind just taking a minute to fill out this survey. It's really quick. It's just to get your pulse of what's going on and how everybody's feeling at the beginning of the school year. Let us know where we are, you know, sort of situate us as a group today as we come together. And I want to invite you while we're doing that, you can also add in the chat if you would a single word or a brief phrase that describes the state of your school. So just try and narrow it down to one word or a brief phrase. You know, you could steal it from You know, your favorite TV show if you want? I don't know, I've tried to think of some good Ted lasso isms, you know, seemed appropriate. But if you would pop that into the chat, we'll get a little waterfall, a little chat, fall going, chat waterfall going. While you are doing that, filling out the survey and putting something in the chat about where, where you're your status or the state of your school at the beginning of this year. I want to make sure that everybody here knows who's who. So I am Susan Davis. I am the professional development director at Atlas. We have with us, Christina Llewellyn, the executive director of Atlas. You have already heard from Ashley Krause, who is the membership director of Atlas and we want to make sure that everybody knows we are a team of four. And we now have with us Kelsea Watson, you can see that you know, she might break into fiddle music at any minute. Now, you know what, maybe the appropriate bobbitt will we need it though. She's Chigurh though Kelsea Watson who is here and she is going to be joining both Atlas, both Ashley and me in the professional development and membership parts of Atlas. So she's going to be helping us in both those areas. All right, I have hopeful Thank you, stasia. For stepping up and being the first person and adding something to the chat. Some people look like they're thinking way too hard about the survey. Just you know, just this is just a quick, get a quick read on things. So and we'll share some of that with you later. If we have time, or we will. We'll share it in our newsletter. Well make sure that that information gets gets out to you.

Unknown Speaker 11:57
So Ethan is asking what the prompt is again, Can you remind them Susan, what they're supposed to do in the chat? Ah,

Unknown Speaker 12:01
that's the thing to do with the chat. I'm going to copy it and paste it over. And I am also going to let you know that just to share a brief word, a brief word, a brief word that means like three, three syllables, or three letters. Share a word or a brief phrase that describes the state of your school at the beginning of the school year. So what just whatever pops into your head? Happy. Hey. three letters with extra wise. We got this good. walking on eggshells. Yeah, yeah, I get that exhausted. See, that was really, I felt I had a feeling we're going to kind of have this range. Glad. All right. Glad. Let's get this thing on the you know, get this thing up and go and Theresa, right. Grateful, stable, wonderful. These are all all really great words, herding cats, but also grateful for community. Good. Wonderful. Popped. All right. All right. Plus one for ready ish. All right. Yeah. Well, I wonder how ready ish is different from other years. But just to give you a sense of things, when we last met in July, you talked a lot about how your role had changed, or how you had been perceived differently in your school communities, that now you're more more seen as trusted guides. And people have a better understanding of how complex the technologies are, that are really big layered on to various aspects of schools. And you also talked about the importance of reflection, not taking time to reflect and think about what we're doing as we evolve into whatever this ongoing result of COVID world is going to be. Because you bring up reflection, I can't help myself. I want to ask, Is there anybody here who attended the Atlas retreat? So I'm curious, we did a lot of reflecting we did a lot of interacting. Jason, you were there too. How did you implement How did it go? In other words, after you left the retreat with your reflections and your plans, and you took them back to your school, how, what happened to those things when you got back? Maybe not all of them. Maybe one of them. Maybe your top priority.

Unknown Speaker 15:12
Got some responses rolling in in the chat?

Unknown Speaker 15:14
Okay, well, I hope that everybody's gonna start speaking up, it is great that this group uses the chat a lot. But that's, it's not as good for the people who come after you who are not here today. We have to kind of work at ways to integrate that in for them. So

Unknown Speaker 15:35
are we gonna send a talking up? Yes, I

Unknown Speaker 15:38
am. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 15:40
Okay, I'll take the bait I I had. So we've got a lot of new leadership at the school, actually, we have a new Upper School had a new middle school head, and a new assistant Head of School for academics. So that's a big change for us right after a pandemic, or if you can see that we're even after the pandemic yet, but and then our lower school head is still fairly new. So there's there's a lot of open possibilities there. And I'm getting the sense from them that there are a lot more interested in talking about things like, what where should the computer science program go next? What technology literacies should we be teaching? And how, how should we be weaving those into other subject areas? And that's our computer science teacher gave me a good metaphor. He said, I feel like I've been pushing on a rope for years now. And somebody's got a pole. And I was like, yeah, that's that's the feeling I have to we're pushing on a rope. And so I finally started to feel some pull from the other side, for folks who can actually require that, that these questions about technology literacies, and media literacy is an information that our C's can get woven into other curriculum. So that's, that's been pretty exciting. And that was one of the things that came out of the retreat for me. Great. Great.

Unknown Speaker 17:08
Yeah. And and a little bit of that is like feeling like the lift is being picked up by other people. It's not all you doing. And the pulling. Right.

Unknown Speaker 17:19
I think there's I think now it's it's sort of it's it's concretely clear that we need these technical literacies. And that it and the kids don't just pick them up along the way that we need to teach them the operational skills around this kind of work.

Unknown Speaker 17:35
Yeah. Peter, you want to share a little bit? Did we lose Peter? Because he's still here?

Unknown Speaker 17:40
I'm eating my lunch. Oh, oh, so

Unknown Speaker 17:43
sorry to get you bid bid bid bow fall? Do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about what happened? You said important conversations with leaders? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 17:55
so just started just asking the question. I have it in my trusty notebook. You know, what are our major school goals? Because we've all been in fire firefighting mode for 18 months or whatever. But where are we moving forward, and it started conversations that other people were thinking about, but hadn't necessarily articulated yet to a larger group. So all those are now starting to come together from department heads and the rest of the senior leadership team, which is great. As we're getting it coincides nicely with our accreditation report. So all these things of

Unknown Speaker 18:29
why that'll move those conversations. Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, I, I felt like for the last year and a half that that this group has really wanted to have conversations with a larger group of decision makers and the movers and shakers at the school, and that maybe now the time has finally come for that start happening. That's great. Anybody else want to share? I don't want to put everybody on the spot, I know that you many of you probably went back, I urge you to go back and look at your reflections, you probably got deep into the fire again, when you went back to your schools. So take a look at what you really thought about and that you hoped you would accomplish based on that wonderful time that we had together. And in Seattle, we're very thankful we're very thankful as, as a staff and as a overall community, I think for having that opportunity to be able to get to come together. At a time when when we weren't all worried again about all that's happening in the world. So I really, I thank the people who came and I hope that we can hear from you. Maybe you'll want to submit something for the annual conference about the retreat and how you took it and put it into practice in some way. Okay. I do want to let everyone know who wasn't there that you have an opportunity to experience a podcast that was made at the retreat of just mainly about the art of reflection, and, and why it's so important and, and how we need to build it more into our lives, we often begin the year with great intentions to have more time to reflect, but some really interesting conversations around the idea of the kind of impact that reflection can have. And that's going to be coming from amplifying optimism in education. And we should have it available in the next couple of weeks. So we'll be sending that out to everybody. And you can listen. Okay, so to make to sort of shift things a little bit, and help the conversation. I'd like to hear from everybody one positive change that carried over from what we might call our first pandemic year into this school year. So in other words, what has stuck what what that what what is something that he evolved that last year that carried out has carried over a good thing that's carried over into this year.

Unknown Speaker 21:18
We're still using zoom back to school nights coffees, we find that our attendance was way up with the zoom as opposed to coming on campus. So for this year, anyways, we're doing all of though a lot of the parent interaction Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 21:37
And that seemed to be a really positively received by the parents, right. Much more interaction, much more involvement. We're getting a lot of that in the chat as well, virtual faculty meetings. Another way of doing that, you know, when you think about the the ways in which faculty often have faculty meetings at the end of the day when everybody's tired, and has a billion other things to think about. So interesting, very interesting. What else, let's hear some other things that have stuck with you.

Unknown Speaker 22:14
With my school, I really liked how the teachers within the grade levels have worked together to streamline how the online content is delivered, so that the parents who are supporting the students homework or virtual work, they can understand where to go, before it was kind of hodgepodge. But now we have a Google document. That's a living document. And, and everybody pumps it right there, even if we're using classroom or Google Sites or something, but it's their landing page. And the parents and the students seem to be able to navigate through that a lot better, much more organized.

Unknown Speaker 22:59
Yeah, I mean, that was a an awareness, it seems that many people gained just from the move to online learning and the need to sort of have some, some clear Wayfinding, if you want to call it that, that in a digital space that helps parents and students understand where they're supposed to be when and what they're supposed to be doing. And there seem to be Yeah, really big, sort of more embracing of that as the consistency being important for the learning. Yeah, absolutely. Anybody else want to share something that has stuck?

Unknown Speaker 23:49
One of the things I did an exercise at the end of last year, to try to find some of the silver linings. And one of the things that came out of our discussions was that in remote schooling, teachers, teachers noticed that a lot of the kids who wouldn't speak up in class would speak up in chat, and when contribute a lot in in a virtual environment in various ways. And so they wanted to find a way to keep that. And so I was able to put together a few different discussion groups. And so they started generating ideas about how to bring some of these silver linings into their practice, even even if we're back on campus. And that was one of the big ones that jumped out to me is that, you know, there's, we're finding that you being in person all the time was inequitable in ways that we weren't really tracking and having, having ways you know, for working parents to join virtually or for a student to participate in a way where they're not they don't have to sort of put themselves out in front of a group of their peers.

Unknown Speaker 24:58
The stakes are different. Yeah, the personal stakes are different. And and, you know, it's the teachers needed to experience that for themselves, I think to understand that the classroom space feels one way to one group of students and another way to another group of students and that the virtual space is the same. But for different students might feel differently. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good one. Anybody else? Well, somebody mentioned community earlier, and I'm going to share, this is something that has struck me in the last couple of months as I've worked with the Atlas Leadership Institute, in a lot of the conversations that we've been having. And that is, it seems that technology, schools have discovered that technology has a role to play in building community. And people were kind of wrestling with that a little bit in the summer, how is that the case? When do we want to use community, technology to build community? And when do we want to use something else? But I'm wondering how if you can tell some stories about how your school to build community, using technology, how it's helped you. Make your community more connected. And you already talked about one way which is connecting with more parents for parent teacher night and things like that.

Unknown Speaker 26:57
I think one thing I could add, and this is Marcia from Atlanta, one thing I can add, I think someone already said this is it has made the community there is a closer but there are more voices, we're hearing voices that we hadn't necessarily heard before. Because we're doing a lot remotely and the community has really embraced that. So we are also seeing the uptake. So I think it's really beneficial. Because people, although they cannot come to our campus, they are still trying to do you know, most of they can to be involved in activities. So there has been uptake. And I would say, interest in what's going on. And we're been trying to add more. We've been more cognizant of the fact that people want to be more connected. So looking at ways to involve the community, not just like, parents and students, but also teachers. You know, after hours not doing their, I guess, work, but you know, as a community, helping each other to get through certain, I guess, difficulties, and also celebrate wins and things like that, and using virtual methods to do it. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 28:12
Anybody else wanna share what you've been doing with technology to build community or support community? or help your community heal?

Unknown Speaker 28:28
Hey, guys, it's Dave Allen, Oakland, California, nice to see you in between getting urgent texts from different offices on campus. I think one of the things that it's nothing groundbreaking, right. But when we're forced into the zoom world, or a meat world, or whatever you guys are using to leverage the tools within there. So during our opening week of professional community meetings, there were plenty of in person outdoor meetings, but when it was time for presentation for everybody where to be able to see something was was more important. We moved to zoom and utilize breakout rooms, to still enable in person conversations. I also think there's a really strong role that inner division departments like technology can play on a campus, it's really important on my team that we are just gonna say, humans, you know, like we have, we can talk to people in person, we're not just plugging in wires and telling people to restart things, right. It's like, we build those relationships and have genuine curiosity in what teachers are doing in their classrooms, what challenges leaders are facing and parts of their parts of the school and are able to bridge some connections in that way. And then on our parent and student front, where we shifted to Blackbaud LMS. Last March, and this year, we're really leveraging some of their community groups trying to bring parent Unity groups into that space and just tried to make it a single spot for both academics, athletics and more of them professional or family community groups that are there.

Unknown Speaker 30:11
Yeah. So do you think, Dave, do you think I would appreciate a little further with that? Do you think that because of everything we've been through and our contents of consciousness of the need for community, that the tech team is just a little bit more aware of that factor. And, and other people are aware of that, that the humaneness of the tech team. So in other words, it's sort of both.

Unknown Speaker 30:39
I don't think it's because of those last year, I think it might be happy accidents. I mean, if anything, this last year pushed most people into further isolation, and that my team really was one that was bridging lots of different areas of the school. So in spaces where we could have those conversations, we were empowered to, I think, you know, what others have said about the openness to moving things to an online format, or to live streaming something has allowed different types of people to take advantage. So I'm thinking about, you know, I have a first grader at the school I work out and there's always like parent coffees or in before times or repair coffees, it's like, well, what parent can show up on campus at 10am? Right. And so if you can move that to a virtual event, it opens up for more types of people with more restrictions to be able to join. So I don't know if that you tried to push me further. I don't know if I went any further. But free to kick me again, it's fine.

Unknown Speaker 31:36
by anybody else? I mean, what about the PD at the beginning of the year, it seemed to me that a lot of schools were calling for, you know, calling for the need for community or understanding community. that technology is certainly often can be involved at the PD at the beginning of the year that builds that school community, that sense of togetherness. Did anybody try anything new in that regard?

Unknown Speaker 32:10
I for us, there's a deeper sense in which we realized we rely on each other. And it's becoming clear to me how little technology can do without the communications department or facilities can do without the technology department. And it was we had the opportunity to really sort of give each other props at the beginning of the year, because there was so much that changed. And there was so much that had to be communicated. And all those communications had to be clear and edited and precise and get to the right people. So the communications department was relying on us to have all those systems working. And then all of these telepresence systems had to go into classrooms, and then come out of classrooms and then be arranged in a circle and then be arranged in rows. And so, you know, we really were, we found ways to, like rely on each other in in a depth that I don't think any of us predicted that we would, you know, and it was really affirming how difficult this all was and how possibly we got through it together.

Unknown Speaker 33:21
Yeah, Melissa mentions that teachers were so exhausted at the last school year that they were not interested in PD growth through the summer, and we lost that opportunity. I think a lot of schools struggled with that. That issue of how you know, technology overload or just change overload, not even just technology overload, but change overload that teachers and others had to deal with. That's sort of why I was pursuing this question, because I do think that there was an opportunity, it's not entirely lost, we still have a year ahead of us. Most schools that I know of are talking about this issue of community. And technology certainly has a role to play. That's something to think about how that might work.

Unknown Speaker 34:11
So I'm very lucky at my school that we have in one way or one school, and we have two curriculum, people, a network, and a tech support, and then me. So we do have a lot of hands on deck. So we're very, very lucky on that. So I'm strategically going for like faculty meetings to have time for me to do some overview things of like, be careful of like spam and all the phishing scams and keeping your network safe and backing up and kind of doing that kind of housekeeping that they just have to constantly here. And then we have division meetings the next week, and so we're strategically designing Many tech sessions and those to introduce new tools or how to improve. And then the next week, we have teacher club meetings. And so we're allowed, or my department is now going to force specific teachers that we want to work with like to, you know, you know, that we're using Cammy. And so really working more with a one on one group, where their ability group to persevere through some of the training. So that's something new this school year that we're doing besides meeting the teacher, you know, during planning meetings. Yeah, I

Unknown Speaker 35:41
think I think it all of this has forced us to think about how much we could ask and when we can ask it, right. And so sort of thinking about the whole year, and not just sort of like, giving them this intro at the beginning of the year and say, Okay, go run with it, or technology is great rah, rah, rah, you know, there's really more of a sense of how this is all integrated into the fabric of what we do.

Unknown Speaker 36:06
I will also say that during the Great lockdown pandemic period, we create lots of how to videos, and then we built the Google site with all the training videos, and my teachers do not want to watch a video. So I'll live the online PD that I'm providing.

Unknown Speaker 36:29
Interesting. I'm wondering, you know, just that's something maybe to think about as a creative opportunity. Right, there might be a way to maybe repurpose those videos. So interesting, interesting. So it's a problem. It's something and that that has to be cracked.

Unknown Speaker 36:49
refound? I mean, I suspect that Melissa, your experience probably mirrors ours pretty well. And when I because we, we did a big change where we integrated Google into some of the blackboard LMS to keep people from abandoning the blackboard LMS for Google Classroom instead. And I made videos around that. And it was then it was, and I bet you're right, that a lot of people didn't watch them. But it was been a way that their supervisors or their department chairs could say, remember this video here that Ethan made for you, that'll answer your questions. And so it was a way for people to keep coming back and saying this question has been answered. And here's the video. So, you know, I think they have, they have kind of a long shelf life to them. Especially if the people who are responsible for getting that practice in place can keep referring back to them. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 37:50
One thing that we were able to do this year Hi, I'm Daisy and Katelyn Gable in Portland, is we did all the videos and then I realized that you know, we have these this whole series that everybody has to do, watch these videos on fire extinguisher safety and sexual harassment and you know, all those sort of other sideboard pathogens during give that one? Oh, yes, blood borne pathogens? Yes, yes. Yes, my favorite. So we tacked on to that. And we put in, you know, we have one on fishing one on MSA, one on keeping your school information and stuff separate from your personal information, not using your school laptop for personal use. So in several of those, and you know, they're three or four minutes long apiece, but they are also required, we were able to get in and I worked with my HR director and Head of School and said, these are just as important as blood borne pathogens. And so that now, we have people coming and say, Oh, I needed to buy a computer because I been using my school computer. And I realized I shouldn't be doing that. And you know, or like I'm sending out email about MFA, because we're really enforcing that this year. And people are like, Oh, yeah, I already I set that up already. I watched the video so the the that force required us Yes, you have to do this and we're recording you did seem to work.

Unknown Speaker 39:16
It's really interesting that you said that you all purposefully made a your your personal computer versus your school computer because when this school has adopted technology, at the beginning part of it, they were encouraged to use their computers for personal with the idea of well, if they have pictures, then they're going to want to put want to look at iPhoto and or make a GarageBand. So it was more of an incentive to getting them to start utilizing the computers and now, you know, 20 years later where we are also trying to please get your own email. Please get your own device and store your personal stuff. But it's, it's that's a huge change and in this school in itself, because we're going backwards to be more like what you're doing now.

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